Hi Daniel,
Id like to continue this discussion.
Yes, I understand that besides rejecting Jesus as a false prophet, jews also reject the bibles used by christians. I dont deny for a second that its been prophecized that Jews will someday accept Jesus as messiah. But then again many hindus, buddhists, Taoists, Pagans, and possibly even some atheists will do the same exact thing.
Q, The Jewish people did reject Jesus, except for a remnant including Paul, Peter, and others who were Jewish believers that Jesus was Messiah. Today, most Jews reject Jesus as Messiah and the New Testament as scripture, that is true. However this will not always be the case, The Jewish Bible (The OLD Testament) clearly reveals a day is coming when the Jewish nation will come to know Jesus as Messiah. This is a pivitol event, fulfilling the words of the Jewish prophets, at this point the nations will be opposed to Israel.
Zechariah wrote about this event 520 years before the birth of Jesus.
Zec 12:9 "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. God has a unique "Covenant" relationship with Israel, God made promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the words of God will be fulfilled, regardless what the nations think. Notice, God Himself gathers the nations against Jerusalem, but the Jews look up "Me" (Jesus) whom they pierced". The nations will be judged, Israel will come to salvation in that day.
When that happens, it will only be the christians and muslims who would have nothing new to learn, as both already accept Jesus as messiah. What really bothers me is that, in spite of muslim acceptance of Jesus as messiah, you claim on your page that it is the muslims who are opposed to Gods plan because they oppose the state of Israel. I mean shouldnt christians be opposed to a secular state founded by atheists, where even the 'religious' people rejects the messiah?
Q,
Though the muslims claim to accept Jesus as Messiah, the word Messiah means two different things to the Muslims and Christians. Christians understand Messiah to be the Redeemer, who is God, who died for the sins of the world. Both the Old Testament and New Testament tell us this. The Quran denies Jesus is the Son of God, denies Jesus died on the cross, their is no salvation in the Muslim Jesus, because he is not the same as the Biblical Jesus.
Regarding the nation of Israel, yes many Jews in Israel are secular and opposed even to the Jewish Bible and God, this is true. This is because they are ignorant of the Bible, and the Jewish prophets. This will not always be the case, the Jews will turn to the Bible and the prophets of the Old and New Testaments as the nations of the world come against them, this is exactly what is taking place now.
In the end the Jews will understand Jesus is Messiah and that he died for their sins, we are only at the start of events. Even many Muslims will one day know Jesus died for their sins and Jesus is the son of God. With Jesus sacrifice their is no hope of salvation for Muslims.
Either way, I know I cannot change your perception of Islam, muslims and Israel. So I will just get to the main points of my original email. I would like you to address the following 2 issues, to the point...
a) The muslim acceptance of Jesus as messiah in contrast with jewish rejection of him.
- How do you reconcile to this. Are Jews still righteous over muslims, in this regard? And why would anyone accept Jesus as messiah, if they were opposed to God, as you say in your website?
Also Can you cite any examples in the bible, of people being 'opposed' to Gods plans but still worshipping the God of Abraham while accepting Jesus as messiah?
Again, Muslims may accept Jesus as messiah, but their understanding of Messiah is false. Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah are no better off then Muslims. Both are without salvation, Salvation only comes through accepting the death of Jesus as sacrifice for sins.
Jesus died to pay for your sins Q, unless you come to him you have no hope. The same goes for the secular Jew and Rabbi, without Jesus there is no salvation.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Those who worship God must come to God in truth, Jesus is God, to oppose Jesus is to oppose God. 700-years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah the Jewish prophet told us the Messiah would be God, born into the world, who would die for the sins of humanity. (isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 53)
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. b) The non-religious character of the modern state of Israel.
-Do you view todays modern state of Israel founded by atheists (where it is ok to be openly atheist and march in gay pride parade) to be an Israel that God would have wanted His people to dwell in? I know that the Bible speaks of a restoration of Israel, but is the modern state of Israel the supposed restoration by God?
Remember that a religious jew (who rejects Jesus) OR an atheist jew (Who rejects God!) can get himself a home in Israel, but a jew who accepts Jesus as messiah cannot. Do you still consider this Jesus-rejecting, secular modern version of Israel to be the 'restored Israel'?
The modern state of Israel is the not the final product. God condemns the sins in the land, God will deal with Israel as he deals with the whole world. The difference will be this, the whole world will get worse, but Israel will turn from the world back to the God of the Bible, when they do this Jesus Returns as their Messiah.
Finally, who do you think is truly opposed to Gods plan? The muslims (who accept Jesus as the messiah) or the secular state of Israel and Judaism, which rejects Jesus as messiah? Would you still defend Israel and the Jews and say muslims are 'opposed to Gods plan'?
Muslims and Jews in Israel have this in common, both do not have a knowledge of the Bible, so both operate on false views of God and God's plans. The Muslims do not know what they think they know, the Quran and the Bible cannot both be True. Jews will one day come to salvation, this is what the End Times is about.
Read it for yourself, written 2600-years ago in the book of Ezekiel.
Eze 37:1 The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
Eze 37:2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord God, You know."
Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!
Eze 37:5 'Thus says the Lord God to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord." ' "
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
Eze 37:8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live." ' "
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Eze 37:11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
Eze 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 "
Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
Eze 37:14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it," says the Lord.' " Eze 37:15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
Eze 37:16 "As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: 'For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.' Then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.'
Eze 37:17 "Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
Eze 37:18 "And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, 'Will you not show us what you mean by these?'-
Eze 37:19 "say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand." '
Eze 37:20 "And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Eze 37:22 "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
Eze 37:23 "
They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. Eze 37:24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.
Eze 37:26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Eze 37:27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 37:28 "
The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." ' "
