Calvinism vs. Arminianism & Divine Election

[jonart]

Are people regenerated by GOD before we are able to exercise saving faith or does human beings have the ability to place saving faith first in Christ and then they are regenerated by GOD?   Regeneration=Faith or Faith=Regeneration? 

[dan p]

 Hi jonart , question that I have , are , how can someone DEAD in trepasses and sins repond to God

[dan p]

Are people regenerated by GOD before we are able to exercise saving faith or does human beings have the ability to place saving faith first in Christ and then they are regenerated by GOD?   Regeneration=Faith or Faith=Regeneration? 

 Hi jonart , I had to leave and could not finish . 

 1) I believe that " no man seeketh after God "

 2) It is God that opens the heart to believe , Acts 16:14 .

 3) Then we see that we are saved by Grace though faith that God gives , for it is a gift of God .

 4) I feel that I am between the Calvinism and the Arminianism  postions , but would answer different between election and human will .

 5) In the extreme Calvanism  position , why witness , give , attend any Assembly , send missionaries , give any alter calls , if we know that we are going to be saved anyway    But I have met Calvanist and all do not hold to all of Tulip .

 6) The Aminianiasm postion , also has many problems , loosing salvation , alter calls , free will etc.

[jonart]

Dan P.; You must be referring to Eph. 2:1- "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins," as a Calvinist I would use this passage to butress my point that dead people can't respond to God,"But God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved)." Eph. 2:4,5. Spiritually dead people are unable to respond to God so He has to take the intiative and draw that person to be spiritually alive. John 6:44.  

[jonart]

Why should a Calvinist witness? Because God works through His Church to carry on the great commission and we don"t know who the elect are. What letter in the accrostic do not all Calvinist hold to? Arminians would say that a person can place saving faith in Christ before their regenerated and I believe the Bible disagrees with that point. I'm glad to see you lean towards God's monergistic act when He elects a person for salvation.

[dan p]

Why should a Calvinist witness? Because God works through His Church to carry on the great commission and we don"t know who the elect are. What letter in the accrostic do not all Calvinist hold to? Arminians would say that a person can place saving faith in Christ before their regenerated and I believe the Bible disagrees with that point. I'm glad to see you lean towards God's monergistic act when He elects a person for salvation.

 Hi jonart , I believe in election , but I feel that they just take it to far , and I believe that Christ died for everyone and NOT just for the elect , for than they could say that God never gave THEM  an opportunity , and we know that God does not want anyone to perish and does NOT delight in the death of anyone .

[jonart]

Dan P.; The verse you bring up in 2 Peter 3:9 "not willing that any should perish" is God speaking of the elect. If you read the whole clause "but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." The word "any" is clearly the "us." When Peter uses the word "us" it refers to us Christians. My guess is Peter is saying God does not will that any of us (the elect) perish. If God wills that no one will perish then we wouldn't have Arminianism, but universalism. Jesus' atonement is sufficient for all of humanity but in the end is only limited for the elect. Bye now.

[dan p]

Dan P.; The verse you bring up in 2 Peter 3:9 "not willing that any should perish" is God speaking of the elect. If you read the whole clause "but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." The word "any" is clearly the "us." When Peter uses the word "us" it refers to us Christians. My guess is Peter is saying God does not will that any of us (the elect) perish. If God wills that no one will perish then we wouldn't have Arminianism, but universalism. Jesus' atonement is sufficient for all of humanity but in the end is only limited for the elect. Bye now.

 Hi jonart , as I have previous said , in our assembly we have Calvinist , Acts 28 , Acts 9 and Acts 13 christian believers and at one time in the past had an Acts 2 believer .
 As I have written to NTS believer , I consider Peter to be part of the New Covenant that all says is in operation and that most can not define what it is , how it is being implemented , what it contains , and if it related to the Body of Christ .

 I believe the word in Eph 2:8 , SAVED , is in the perfect tense , passive voice , and in the indicative mood , and this MEANS , that we are saved forever .

 In Arminianism and Universalism , IT is a view held by many Christians , and that means I am in the Miniority , but will be Shocked at the Departure , ( the rapture )











 

[jonart]

Dan P.; In the chapters you cited in the book of Acts what passages are you pointing to with regards to Calvinism vs. Arminianism and divine election? And what position are you defending? Arminianism is held by many Christians but Universalism is not a Biblical position. Whoever holds to that position has a disagreement with Jesus Christ; "Marvel not at this: for the hour shall come, in which all that are in the graves, shall hear His voice. And they shall come forth, that have done good, unto the resurrection of life: but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation." Jn. 5:28,29.

[dan p]

Dan P.; In the chapters you cited in the book of Acts what passages are you pointing to with regards to Calvinism vs. Arminianism and divine election? And what position are you defending? Arminianism is held by many Christians but Universalism is not a Biblical position. Whoever holds to that position has a disagreement with Jesus Christ; "Marvel not at this: for the hour shall come, in which all that are in the graves, shall hear His voice. And they shall come forth, that have done good, unto the resurrection of life: but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation." Jn. 5:28,29.

 Hi jonart , the Calvinist  use the same verses  that we used , but interptet them different .  Not all Calvinist are 5 pointers and some are 4 pointer and one told me that he was 7 pointer , which I have never hear before . I have mostly stayed away from theit discussions because it is a can of worms . The one Calvinist that we have in our assembly uses Romans a lot and Pauls Letters to prove his point .

 The Universalist are very much among us, and I see them in other forums that I am on and use a lot of Paul , to prove their points , like Col 1:20 , where the Greek word PANTA is not in the Greek Text , but the Greek words , TA PANTA which means " the all things " and the ARTICLE changes the interpetation .

[jonart]

Dear Dan P.; I understand that Christians don't have the time to fully explore every Bible doctrine that God teaches us through His word but if you ever study God's act of electing people for salvation it is one of the most rewarding studies I have ever had. For instance I went through a period of time when I was a young Christian and I had doubts about my salvation. When I began to plumb the depths of God's word on His sovereign grace concerning His electing of people to salvation, my doubts went away never to return. And about Universalism that is not Biblical because what is crystal clear is that there is judgement waiting for people who are not covered by the righteousness of Christ, John 5:28,29. In Col.1:20 that doesn't have anything to do with universlism, the "all things" has to do with believers and ultimately all things in the created universe. Remember the whole creation is groaning(Rom. 8:22) waiting for the new heavens and new earth,(Rev. 21:1.) Universalism is not in a Christian world view and those who do hold to it disagree with Jesus Christ (John 5:28,29.) If I were to speak to a Universalist I would gently point out to him that when you interpret the cloudy always use the clear meaning of scripture and Jesus Christ Himself says not all will be saved (John 5:28,29.)