Chapters 1,2,3,4 of Revelation ?????

[dan p]

Hi to all , and most of what I have seen and read , most Christians consider , the first , 4 chapters are the church the Body of Christ . And I say that is not so , and far FROM any reasonably interpretation or literal interpretation .

 One noted scholar connects Song of Solomon with a relationship between this love story and the 7 churches in the book of the Revelation .

 1) Most Grace believers consider these Assemblies to be Future .

 2) They will be mostly Jewish .

 3) One scholar , says that there were no Assemblies at most of these cities .

 4) These assemblies will receive their instructions through the Hebrew-Jewish Epistles and the Revelation letter .

 5) Paul Satler states , " in other words , these letters will be distributed among the Kingdom Assemblies for instruction , similar to Paul's espitles today ."

 6) Just as we turn to Paul's revelation for the commands of Christ for the  Aseembly, the Tribulation Saints will turn to the Hebrew espitles for their marching orders , with special emphasis on these 7 letters .

 7) Thus the literary order of the assemblies in Revelation corresponds with the Historical order of the Old Testament .  The messages combine into a unified messages to remind those in the Tribulation of WHY and How the got into this Predicament , and what the future holds for them .

REVELATION ASSEMBLY-------HISTORICAL---------MEANING ASSEMBLE
                                         reminder
1) Ephesus----------------- The Exodus-----------Desirable

2) Smyrna------------------Wanderings------------Sweet smelling

3) Pergamos----------------widerness-------------Marriage

4) Thyatira-----------------Period of Kings--------Continual Sacrifice

5)Sardis----------------ten tribes removed--------remanant escapes

6) Philadephia------------Judah removed---------Brotherly love

7) Laodicea---------------minor prophets--------A righteous people

  The Revelation letters cover Israel's birth out of Egypt

 9) Her wandering
 
 10) Her removal

 11) and the minor prophets who discuss the Tribulation and Kingdom . There are 7 elements is SOS and 7 Revelation assemblies ;  the teachings of both books are wonderfully aligned .

12) The parallel teachings shows God's effort to remind Israel of HER past and what lies ahead .

13) The historical flow proceeds from desirableness and the sweet smell of first love  , to marriage and continual sacrifice  ,  to removal , to the need for brotherly love , in the Tribulation , and finally to ther estabishment of a righteous people in the Kingdom .






 




















 

[jonart]

Dear Dan P.; I'd like to recommend two introductory books on the art and science of biblical interpretation that I think would be very helpful for you. One is "Knowing Scripture" by R. C. Sproul and the other is "How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth" by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. These are again introductory books and I don't think you'll have a hard time with them for they are for the layman. Total cost for both books is under 30 dollars or if you prefer just one book that would be under 15 dollars.

[dan p]

Dear Dan P.; I'd like to recommend two introductory books on the art and science of biblical interpretation that I think would be very helpful for you. One is "Knowing Scripture" by R. C. Sproul and the other is "How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth" by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. These are again introductory books and I don't think you'll have a hard time with them for they are for the layman. Total cost for both books is under 30 dollars or if you prefer just one book that would be under 15 dollars.

 Hi jonart , thanks for your recommendation , and have listened to R C Sproul and his son on the radio .  I do not believe that we are in agreement  .

[jonart]

Dear Dan P.; I didn't recommend these books to try to persuade you to change your theology. That's not the purpose of these books nor are they covenant theology books so let me make that clear. These are well respected books that cut across theological lines including dispensational theology. These books help Christians to understand hermeneutics and the principals laid out in the books are what Christians would all agree with. The books communicate basic interpretive principals that are excepted by all evangelicals. I have suspected for awhile that you need to know what these principals are so you have the best foundation for when you do your exegesis.

[NTStudent]

Again, you are just being silly, Jonart. Things like paying attention to good interpretive principles or discovering how Scripture was understood and used from the very earliest records are totally beside the point. What one must ONLY do is grasp hold of 19th century inventions, then reinterpret scripture in order to twist it (beyond all recognition, given the opening salvo in this thread) to fit that 19th century lunacy.

[dan p]

Again, you are just being silly, Jonart. Things like paying attention to good interpretive principles or discovering how Scripture was understood and used from the very earliest records are totally beside the point. What one must ONLY do is grasp hold of 19th century inventions, then reinterpret scripture in order to twist it (beyond all recognition, given the opening salvo in this thread) to fit that 19th century lunacy.

 Hi NTS , and I was taking jonart answer seriously and I do not look at him as silly .

[jonart]

Dear Dan P.; Thanks for taking me seriously but don't take NTS seriously. The letters John wrote to the seven churches were to them specificaly and not to us 2000 years later. These were historical Christian churches who were going through persecution. The letters are for us but not to us. You have to remember that #1 the book was written before the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D.70 and #2 the book of Revelation has 404 verses and 278 of those 404 verses are allusions to the Old Testament. So if you don't have a good grasp on the Old Testament and it's symbolic meaning John uses you will get all kinds of weird interpretations like Tim Lahaye communicates in the "Left Behind" series.

[dan p]

Dear Dan P.; Thanks for taking me seriously but don't take NTS seriously. The letters John wrote to the seven churches were to them specificaly and not to us 2000 years later. These were historical Christian churches who were going through persecution. The letters are for us but not to us. You have to remember that #1 the book was written before the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D.70 and #2 the book of Revelation has 404 verses and 278 of those 404 verses are allusions to the Old Testament. So if you don't have a good grasp on the Old Testament and it's symbolic meaning John uses you will get all kinds of weird interpretations like Tim Lahaye communicates in the "Left Behind" series.

 Hi jonart , and to me their are many reasons that I believe the Book is yet future .
 #1 , Most of these cities , NO letter was written to them .
 #2 , Then Rev 1:7 , is also found in the Old Testament , the one that they Pierced on the cross and this refrences the Jews .
 #3 , The Nicolaitanes are mentioned in Ephesus and Pergamos Assemblies , Rev 2:15 , and who are they
 #4 , Do you hear about that in the Pulpit
 #5 , Then in Rev3:9 the CONTEXT is Jewish , who say they are Jews but are not , But Christ will come  (  when is this timeline to happen )  and make them to worship before thy FEET .
 #6 , The only way for you is to say that it already happened !!!

[NTStudent]

I tried to tell you, Jonart. The historical background of the book--i.e., that it was written to actual churches with actual problems at the time of its writing and that it was understood as such for almost the first 1500 years of church history until some Jesuits invented the futurist interpretation that dispensationalists like DanP and Daniel hold to via adoption--is inconsequential in the face of the new invented context of 19th century dispensational fantasy. You and I need to stop looking at the first century and trust the inventive genius of the dispensational movement.

[jonart]

Yes NTS you make good points I almost forgot about when I was a dispensationalist. I was told you cannot interpret the Bible first but that you had to hold to dispensationalism and then you can come into the water and we'll (dispensational teachings) tell you what to believe. I believe dispensationalism is dying out because there are no major exegetical dispensational scholars writing books. Except for the likes of Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffries but nobody takes these guys seriously anymore if they remember all their prophesies about endtimes and antichrist have failed. Dear Dan P., as I said Revelation was written for us so I am a futurist when it comes to the second comming of Christ and the eternal state that the book communicates.

[dan p]

Yes NTS you make good points I almost forgot about when I was a dispensationalist. I was told you cannot interpret the Bible first but that you had to hold to dispensationalism and then you can come into the water and we'll (dispensational teachings) tell you what to believe. I believe dispensationalism is dying out because there are no major exegetical dispensational scholars writing books. Except for the likes of Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffries but nobody takes these guys seriously anymore if they remember all their prophesies about endtimes and antichrist have failed. Dear Dan P., as I said Revelation was written for us so I am a futurist when it comes to the second comming of Christ and the eternal state that the book communicates.

 Hi jonart , I do not read the likes of Hal Lindsey or Grant Jeffries and there are many who say that they are Dispensationalists , but are not .

 There are Acts 2 , believers , but they are NOT Dispensational .

 They only ones who are dispensationalists are Acts 9 , 11 , 13 , 28 .

 The reason that Acts 2 are not dispensational , is because they begin the Body of Christ at the Day of Pentecost .

 The others begin it with the Apostle Paul .

 Most of the so-called Dispensatioalists are Acts 2 .

 And we have in my opinion better scholarship than the rest and their are Theological schools that teach Dispensational truth , like in Grants Pass , Oregon , St Louis , Mo  and Grandrapids MI , some in the Phillipines , and in Brazil , just off the top of my head , and we have not talked about literature that is sent everywhere .

[dan p]

 Hi to all , and if anyone would desire to read a different reading of the Song of Solomon you all can go to the following web site , www.bereanbiblesociety.org and look for the Feb, ; Mar ; and April issues by Steve Shober and it is a shocker for you and it will be a treat .  The reason that I did not write about it , is because it is many pages , and by the way it is in 2008 issues , dan p